Justice Equality and Law Reform Questions in the Dáil on Thursday afternoon may have passed you by unnoticed – but fear not I am here with the best bit.  Deputy Pat Rabbitte versus Minister Dermot Ahern on the matter of the Equality Authority.

Watch out for the bit where the Minister nearly gets thrown out of the Dail by the Leas Ceann Comhairle!  And the special shout out of protection for the Church.

Rabbitte was on super wind up form. I will post later about all the inaccuracies made by the Minister but I think this should be left it all it’s glory for you to read.

If you don’t think the recent cuts to the Equality Authority and Irish Human Rights Commission were a matter of political interference before this….

2. Deputy Pat Rabbitte asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the position regarding contacts he has had with the Equality Authority regarding difficulties they will face as a result of his decision to cut its budget by 42% for 2009; the reason he did not accept the suggestion put forward by the board of the authority for alternative cuts that would have resulted in savings of 32%; his views on the resignation of a person (details supplied) as chief executive and his view that the budget cut imposed by his Department had rendered the authority unviable; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [47438/08]

Deputy Dermot Ahern: At the outset I wish to state the Government’s absolute commitment to the principles of equality and the elimination of discrimination as enunciated in much equality legislation passed by the Oireachtas. I commend the work of the Equality Authority and I state my commitment to ensuring a secure and viable future for the Agency.

The Government and its predecessors promoted the legislation and which earmarked €47 million for the Equality Authority since 1997, increasing from an initial budget of €378,000 and rising to €5.9 million in 2007. The Government and its predecessors increased the number of staff in the Equality Authority to 53 in 2007.

We will continue to earmark substantial taxpayer resources to the Equality Authority to allow it to carry out its core functions as per the legislation. Naturally, when the national finances permit, we will also ensure that the budget of the Equality Authority is appropriately increased.

I am requesting all agencies which fall under the remit of my Department, including the Equality Authority, to engage in coming months with the expenditure review group which will take an independent analysis of the position relating to their budgets, efficiencies and the capacity to fulfil their core functions.

I accept that 2009 will be a difficult year for all public bodies, including the Equality Authority and other agencies in the justice area. However, I am satisfied there is sufficient funding for the authority to enable it to discharge its core functions. I welcome the statement this week from the board of the authority declaring its commitment and determination to continue to work effectively and independently for the elimination of discrimination and the promotion of equality in our society.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: Is it not hypocritical in the extreme of the Minister to trot out some mealy-mouthed platitudes in the House about his commitment to equality, when he has driven out the chief executive from the Equality Authority and has effectively broken up the agency? Is it not the case that the Equality Authority cannot possibly discharge its functions under the strictures now on it? What is the point of reiterating that this Government has done this or the other? The agency only has been in existence for approximately ten years and Fianna Fáil has been in government throughout that time. The Minister could take any agency and multiply its funding by ten years’ budgets to give the impression of enormous largesse and support.

Is the Minister proud of the fact that he has driven out the chief executive, a man who has won commendations on all sides in respect of his performance and the independent and courageous manner in which he discharged his duties with integrity? Is the Minister satisfied that the agency effectively has been undermined because it cannot and will not be able to discharge its functions in the future?

Deputy Dermot Ahern: The ethos of my political party on its formation was to bring equality into a highly divided and class-ridden society. I take pride in the fact that all of the equality legislation that has been passed by this House has been introduced by Fianna Fáil-led Governments, of which neither Deputy Rabbitte nor his party, the so-called Labour Party, the party of the people, was a member.

Deputy Charles Flanagan: That is not true.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: As for the specific issue of the Equality Authority, Members on all sides, particularly those in the Opposition, have been constantly raising the valid issue of spending on public relations and consultancies. It will do no harm to refer to the 2007 report, which Deputy Rabbitte should have read before coming into the House, on the Equality Authority. In 2007, it spent €220,000 on public relations and €100,000 on consultants. A total of €614,000 was spent on the European Year of Equal Opportunities, half of which came from European funding and half from its own budget, giving a net expenditure of €300,000. It also spent €350,000 on an anti-racist week and €230,000 on a national campaign against ageism, the expenditure on which was criticised by the Opposition in this House. It spent €184,000 on publications and, in effect, €440,000 on rent of premises in Dublin. However, it could make savings by going down and spending only €120,000 on rental accommodation in Roscrea, where 15 employees of the Equality Authority already reside. When Members on the other side of the House raise the issue of consultancies and expenditure, it is valid to go through such expenditure to ascertain where there can be savings.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I wish to facilitate a brief supplementary question.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: Again, I revert to the point that I made previously—–

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: If the Minister will have regard to the Chair please.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: I wish to finish my point, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I wish to again emphasise—–

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I must inform the Minister that a strict time limit applies, including the time for ministerial responses.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: I will revert to the issue later.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister should allow the Chair to operate.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: While Members do not have time at present to deal with the novel proposition that the purpose of Fianna Fáil coming into existence was to address our class-ridden society, they may return to it at another time. What does the Minister purport to have told Members in his reply, having read out various expenditure headings? Which of them does he suggest is improper? Is it not the task of the Equality Authority to deal with issues such as racism? If excessive rental costs for the headquarters have been incurred, who approved them? Why did someone in the Minister’s Government not do something about it over the past 11 years?

Can the Minister assure the House that the forcing out of Mr. Niall Crowley has nothing to do with the Equality Authority’s referral to the Garda Síochána of an allegation that the Secretary General of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, while head of the Prison Service, had breached the Employment Equality Acts? If the Minister is so interested in saving money, is it not the case that the board members of this organisation used to serve free gratis for years until the appointment of the new board by the Minister, the members of which now are paid a fee of €10,000 each? Can the Minister answer these questions?

Deputy Dermot Ahern: First, I will not take lectures from Deputy Rabbitte on the genesis of my party, particularly as I am not altogether sure what was his political genesis, given that he has been in so many political parties since he entered this House and beforehand. As for the Equality Authority, I validly listed out areas in which I believe savings can be effected because we are now in a different situation. When I was dealing with the Estimates a number of months ago, I made the point I was trying to make in my earlier response. As I stated during my last Question Time, I told my officials that my number one priority in my Department was tackling crime. This is the reason that, for example, Operation Anvil’s budget has been increased by €1 million from €20 million to €21 million, as well as an increase of 20% in CAB’s budget—–

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: That is the reason the Minister cut the authority’s budget by 42%?

Deputy Dermot Ahern: —–and I am keeping Garda numbers on the street. I wished to concentrate on the issue of policing and tackling crime.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: The Minister knows this is entirely disingenuous.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: I stated that, unfortunately, all the other agencies that comprise the soft part of my Department were obliged to take a significant cut right across the Department.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: Did everyone take a cut of 42%?

Deputy Dermot Ahern: Yes. I made the point to the Equality Authority people—–

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: The rest of the agencies experienced cuts of 2%, 4% and 6%.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: —–when they came into my office recently—–

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister, without interruption

Deputy Dermot Ahern: —–that, to a certain extent, the fact the Department only deducted 1% from the National Disability Authority has been hung around my neck. I made this point strongly to the members of the authority’s board and the chief executive when I met them last week. I told them the Government had made a specific decision when preparing the Estimates and the budget that people with disabilities would be those least affected by cuts. This is the reason there is such a small cut in respect of that authority.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Go raibh maith agat a Aire. Ceist Uimh. 3.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: What about the board members?

Deputy Dermot Ahern: However, when one examines this expenditure, it is valid to ask a question on amounts such as €184,000 on publications—–

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: When did the board members get—–

Deputy Dermot Ahern: —–€220,000 on public relations—–

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: The Minister is filibustering.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: —–€184,000 on publications—–

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: The Minister is filibustering. He is spoofing.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: —–and €100,000 on consultants. No, I am not filibustering.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: What is the answer to the two questions?

Deputy Dermot Ahern: I must say the Deputy is adding to the nasty—–

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: The Minister is filibustering.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:The Minister must conclude his reply.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: —–leak that came from people.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: Nasty?

Deputy Dermot Ahern: It reflects more on those who made such a nasty leak against a good public servant.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: Is that all the Minister has to say?

Deputy Dermot Ahern:It is a disgrace. As usual, the Deputy comes into this House, as he did before many years ago—–

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: The Minister is flimflamming. He is filibustering.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Ceist Uimh. 3, in ainm an Teachta Charles Flanagan.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: —–when he tried to denigrate the church.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: He is filibustering—–

Deputy Dermot Ahern: He is at it again and I am not filibustering. I have given the Deputy all the facts.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: —–and he did not answer any of the questions.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: I have given all the facts to the Deputy.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputies will resume their seats.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: What the Deputy did is a disgrace in respect of a good public servant. This leak was a despicable effort to try to blacken him and the Deputy is adding to it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister will not disobey the Chair.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: I will not come into this House—–

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I will suspend—–

Deputy Dermot Ahern: —–and allow that man to denigrate someone who is not present to defend himself.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister will resume his seat.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: This is a disgrace and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle should be intervening.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister will—–

Deputy Dermot Ahern: The Leas-Cheann Comhairle should be intervening to ask him to withdraw those remarks about a good public official.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister will resume his seat or leave the House.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: No, I will not.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte:I did not denigrate anyone.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy also will—–

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: However, the Minister did not answer the question.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Deputy Rabbitte will resume his seat.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: He did not answer it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Deputy Rabbitte will resume his seat.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: This was a mean-minded act in which the Minister colluded. Moreover, the Minister did not answer any of the questions he was asked.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: I did.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: This is the final—–

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: His response was to filibuster and to wrap the Secretary General around him.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: If there is continued disorder, I will suspend the House. This is the final session before Christmas and I would have hoped for a civil atmosphere in the House. I deeply regret the statement by the Minister that he would refuse to obey the Chair. All Deputies, on whatever side of the House, will obey the Chair. We will continue in an orderly fashion and if there is any further disorder, I will suspend the House forthwith. Question No. 3 is called.

Prison Accommodation.

3. Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the prisoner capacity of each prison; the number of prisoners held in each prison; his views on overcrowding in prisons; and the action he will take in the immediate, medium and long term to address the matter of prison overcrowding. [47435/08]

Deputy Dermot Ahern: It is a disgrace that the Deputy—–

Deputy Charles Flanagan: The Minister is not answering the question.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister will either obey the Chair or I will suspend the House.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: I think what happened here today is a disgrace. The information requested by the Deputy—–

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: The Minister is the one who is a disgrace.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: It is a disgrace that Deputy Rabbitte would denigrate a good public servant.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: He is the one who is a disgrace, trying to wrap the Secretary General around himself.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Very well.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: Deputy Rabbitte is at it again.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: Do not disgrace me.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: Deputy Rabbitte is a disgrace.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: The Minister, Deputy Ahern, is a petty little man.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: I am not.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Very well.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: The Minister, Deputy Ahern, is a petty little man.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: Deputy Rabbitte is a man—–

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I will not—–

Deputy Dermot Ahern: —–who tried to denigrate a good public servant who is not able to defend himself in this House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: —–tolerate further disorder.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: Why did the Minister not answer? He would not answer the question.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: Deputy Rabbitte cannot denigrate. He is not here to defend himself.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: He tries to give it a go about a decent public servant and he comes in here wrapping the Secretary General around himself.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: Deputy Rabbitte is a disgrace.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The House is adjourned for ten minutes.

Sitting suspended at 3.50 p.m. and resumed at 4 p.m.